Hong Kong Legal Studies Advice

[JonCal]

I'm an American interested in possibly studying for my JD at CUHK (HKU no longer has FASFA. dunno why) and would appreciate some guidance from anyone who has experience in the Hong Kong legal community. I did my undergrad at a top University of California school back in the states, and am now doing my postgrad at Tsinghua in Beijing. I'm pretty set on going to law school next fall, and after reading more than a dozen or so articles on the pros and cons of abroad legal study I feel the need to clarify my particular case. Financially speaking, getting my JD in HK is WAY more viable than at a similarly ranked school stateside. I am already educationally and professionally committed to the greater China region, so I do not mind if moving back to the US is difficult after I get my JD. I've read that local hires earn much less than their US JD counterparts, and need to know if a T14 LLM could remedy this income imbalance (JD program in HK is 2 years as opposed to 3 back in the US. After I get my JD I would go back to the states and do a LLM, take the NY bar, come back to HK, and decide between taking the PCLL or practicing in an international firm. At this point, the time commitment between US JD vs HK JD + LLM would be the same.) Any advice on this would be greatly appreciated.

[howill]

Technically no.

The only way you are going to get US rates is if you worked at a firm in the US (having done the bar), and did an internal transfer to HK.

Doing a HK law degree + doing a T14 LLM is not going to get you into a top law firm in the US, unless, maybe, your LLM was from HYS. There is an oversupply of candidates in US law schools, there is no reason for US law firms to hire someone from abroad.

In short, if you want US rates, go back to the US, work your ass off at law school, get into a good law firm, and internally transfer to HK.

Any other method would result in you being treated as a "local" hire, although to be fair, the salaries as a local hire are pretty competitive (given the low tax rate).

[JonCal]

Thanks for the advice. This is getting rather specific, but in your opinion what is "competitive" these days? I have a few friends at Michigan that can't get more than US 1,500/week for their summer internships because of firms tightening their belts. Three years ago this figure would have been scoffed at by the top 50% in their year. Realistically speaking, what should I be expecting if I went the local hire route?

[hello_there]

Thanks for the advice. This is getting rather specific, but in your opinion what is "competitive" these days? I have a few friends at Michigan that can't get more than US 1,500/week for their summer internships because of firms tightening their belts. Three years ago this figure would have been scoffed at by the top 50% in their year. Realistically speaking, what should I be expecting if I went the local hire route?

Depends on the size and business of the local firm, but starting for a local graduate at a small firm in HK would be much less than US$1500/ week. The is pretty wide, but also less (pretty much across the board at all local firms) than you would make at an international firm here. If you don't speak fluent (i.e. native) Cantonese, then you can forget a job at quite a number of local firms.

Just a side note - I practice at an international firm here and I don't know a soul who got a JD from a HK university that practices US law (or HK law for that matter as they tend go the more traditional route with a law undergraduate degree plus PCLL course). An LLM combined with a non-US JD does not equate to a JD from a good US school if you are looking to practice law at a US firm, in or outside of the US. It just looks odd on your resume and decreases your overall job prospects.

Also, there is a big difference in most of the work that international vs. local firms do here. The local firms handle (generally) things like probate, conveyancing, family law, local litigation matters, and small business law.

[hello_there]

The only way you are going to get US rates is if you worked at a firm in the US (having done the bar), and did an internal transfer to HK.

Occasionally international firms do hire first years (paid at US rates, COLA and all the rest) to work out of their HK offices and quite a number have active summer associate programs, so you don't necessarily have to transfer internally. The first year associates I've met out here tend to have some sort of strong connection to HK though and there are a lot of career-related reasons why you would be better off starting out in NY or wherever for a couple of years. But, its still possible (although not common) to get out here right out of a US law school.

[JonCal]

Just a side note - I practice at an international firm here and I don't know a soul who got a JD from a HK university that practices US law (or HK law for that matter as they tend go the more traditional route with a law undergraduate degree plus PCLL course).

The JD programs at both HKU and CUHK are quite new. HKU started theirs last year, and CUHK in 2006ish. This could potentially explain any lack of representation in both local and foreign firms. Other than that particular caveat, what you say makes sense.

[hello_there]

The JD programs at both HKU and CUHK are quite new. HKU started theirs last year, and CUHK in 2006ish. This could potentially explain any lack of representation in both local and foreign firms. Other than that particular caveat, what you say makes sense.

I know they are new, which raises another employability issue for graduates - no alum network and no track record of recent graduates for those making hiring decisions to go by. I see plenty of resumes that come across my desk from both of these schools, but we rarely interview from them. If you are going to practice HK law (which is limiting - HK is a very tiny jurisdiction) get a proper HK law degree (or a UK degree and do the PCLL). If you are going to practice US law abroad, get a US law degree. My honest view is that a JD in HK law will be limiting career wise and doesn't really add anything in terms of having a China focus.

[JonCal]

Thanks for the brutal honesty. Need to look at my options a bit more closely then. I appreciate the feedback.

[Football16]

You need to consider that HK law firms seem now to be getting work from firms in Europe and North America as HK is a business community of limited scope and size. Speak to some international law firms here to confirm this.

If you were doing an MBA with a regional focus here - do it here, yes. Not so sure about the legal studies though and your other goals being realized.

[hello_there]

Thanks for the brutal honesty. Need to look at my options a bit more closely then. I appreciate the feedback.

Jon,

Feel free to send me a private message if you have any more detailed questions about private practice at an international firm in HK (or greater China). There are definitely some differences between practicing in HK and practicing in Shanghai/ Beijing, although international firms are set up these days so that people from multiple offices often work on transactions. A lot of China work is also done by teams based in California, New York and London with support from local offices in HK/ China. If you are planning to work long-term at a large international firm, there is definitely value in starting your career in the US (or UK if you are an English lawyer) for several years. The training is much better/ more organized and there is more supervision/ mentoring which really does make a difference in your development as a junior attorney. If you're good and your firm knows you are interested in China they seem to be pretty willing (generally) to transfer solid 3rd+ years out to HK/ China, where, at least right now, firms really need well-trained talent.

From your brief posts it seems that you are more interested in China work than purely HK work, which is why I have suggested a law degree from either the US or the UK as being of more value in the long term. If you are doing China deals it is more likely that the transactions will be covered by PRC, US (NY) or UK law than by HK law and staffed by lawyers qualified in one or more of the former jurisdictions. However, if your career goals really do involve being in HK (not mainland China) for the long haul and doing HK law work then considering a HK law degree (or English law degree + PCLL in HK) may be the right step.