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Number of Americans in poverty hits record high

  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiuMaiTaiTai
    This is what happened to someone I know, he lost his job and when he tried to ask for help, the gov. told him he needs to sell his house & car before they will help and obviously when you have a family and don't live in a city with good transport links, selling your car and house isn't ideal.
    The US is great for many things but they do not look after their citizens in times of need.
    Sounds like a tough situation; but the guy isn't indigent. Laid-off workers have the right to continue to pay for health insurance under COBRA. Your friend choose to not continue his own health insurance and has keep a house and a car and is surprised that the government won't pay all his medical bills for him; different philisophies regarding health care can be reasonable; and I certainly sympathize, but whether or not the government should be required to foot the medical bills of unemployed, but not poor, middle-class persons is at least debatable.

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    Quote Originally Posted by HongKongFoot
    Where do you get this idea that those studied, worked hard, saved, and made all the right moves should be responsible for those who didnt?

    Where do you get this sick and twisted Orweillan/Marxist thought?
    So if when you were in the military you had been badly injured so you could never work again and required constant medical care and support, you would have expected to be dumped on the street to die? Why should anyone look after you or pay taxes for you when it was none of their responsibility?

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    Quote Originally Posted by YCC
    My mom's friends who live in America tell her that they need to pay something like 400 american dollars each one of them every month for medical coverage. I think that's a lot......

    This couple is at retirement age.
    Once they turn 65, almost every thing is pretty much free. My mother in law also has a subsidized middle-class apartment in a nice part of Pasadena. She lives better than a millionaire in HK or China.
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    Quote Originally Posted by hullexile
    So if when you were in the military you had been badly injured so you could never work again and required constant medical care and support, you would have expected to be dumped on the street to die? Why should anyone look after you or pay taxes for you when it was none of their responsibility?
    Actually, veterans get free medical care, pretty much for the rest of their lives. It's actually one of the 'hidden costs' that government statisticians are freaking out about.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Freetrader
    Actually, veterans get free medical care, pretty much for the rest of their lives. It's actually one of the 'hidden costs' that government statisticians are freaking out about.
    As they should IMO.
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  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Freetrader
    She lives better than a millionaire in HK or China.
    in HKD, CNY or USD ?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Freetrader
    Sounds like a tough situation; but the guy isn't indigent. Laid-off workers have the right to continue to pay for health insurance under COBRA. Your friend choose to not continue his own health insurance and has keep a house and a car and is surprised that the government won't pay all his medical bills for him; different philisophies regarding health care can be reasonable; and I certainly sympathize, but whether or not the government should be required to foot the medical bills of unemployed, but not poor, middle-class persons is at least debatable.
    Well I don't know 100% of the details and I don't know about this COBRA thing but he definitely was/is not 'middle' class. He didn't own the house outright, he just couldn't pay for his mortgage and medical bills all the same time without income.
    Luckily for his family, he found a job eventually so it turned out okay but they are now quite bitter about the American system (how long that will last I'm not sure!)

  8. #38
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    Two words: VA benefits.



    Quote Originally Posted by hullexile
    So if when you were in the military you had been badly injured so you could never work again and required constant medical care and support, you would have expected to be dumped on the street to die? Why should anyone look after you or pay taxes for you when it was none of their responsibility?

  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Football16 View Post
    [B]
    49 million Americans without health care. The founding fathers did not mention health care in their constitution as they believed then as some idiots do now - that if you got sick that was your fault.




    Quote Originally Posted by HongKongFoot
    Where do you get this idea that those studied, worked hard, saved, and made all the right moves should be responsible for those who didnt?

    Where do you get this sick and twisted Orweillan/Marxist thought?
    No time but to cut and paste this for you.

    Where did I get this? Simple really. I studied a fair amount of US History. It is funny, you know so much about guns and knives yet really so little of the history of health care in your own country. Quite a shame really as it does not make for a rationale debate of issues when one side is armed with slogans alone without knowing their origins back into the late 1700s.

    While helping the new Iraq with American architects putting health care rights in their new constitution, health care in America is left to the vagaries of the market place as capitalism is best there and of course an impediment is the Constitution. The US is the only democracy in the world who stands alone on this issue.

    As most Americans know that no where in the Constitution is health care mentioned and studies suggest it was for the reasons I noted - if you got sick, it was your problem.

    To go to a single payer system in the USA would require a constitutional amendment something that is set up to not happen as you can see from things in 2010 and the anger over Obamacare. Amending Constitutions are never easy and are designed to be that way.

    Wiki shows these actions in 2010 alone-


    "National health care nullification


    As of March 2010, legislators in 30 states had introduced legislation which would declare certain provisions of any proposed national health care bill to be null and void within the state; the legislation passed in Arizona, Idaho, Utah, and Virginia.[24] Such provisions include mandatory participation in such a system as well as preserving the right of a patient to pay a health care professional for treatment (and for the professional to accept it) outside of a single-payer system. Arizona's legislation passed as a proposed constitutional amendment, approved by voters in 2010.[25] On February 1, 2010, the Virginia Senate took a stand against a key provision of a proposed federal health care overhaul, passing legislation declaring that Virginia residents cannot be forced to buy health insurance. On March 17, 2010, Idaho Governor C.L. "Butch" Otter signed a bill requiring the Attorney General to sue the federal government if Idaho residents are required to buy health insurance.[26]"

    Then there is this:

    Health Care Freedom Act – Tenth Amendment Center

    Health Care Freedom Act

    [I]A reading of the Constitution through the original understanding of the Founders and Ratifiers makes it quite clear that any national health care plan, or national public option, is not something that was delegated by the People to the Federal Government in the Constitution.

    However, the courts, politicians and many commentators have interpreted (and re-interpreted) the Commerce Clause, the general Welfare Clause and Necessary and Proper Clause in ways not intended by the Founders so as to justify such programs under the Constitution. They are most certainly wrong."

    Health Care Freedom Act – Tenth Amendment Center

    For a more indepth look at American thinking and how this extends back to the architects of the US constitution check out this doctor's take as he shows just what the thinking was back then:

    Is There a Right to Health Care?

    What people like you have is a grasp of some of the mantras denouncing single payer systems (even though the money gets spent in both private and public care) or pronouncing that "socialism" is disgusting but not a basic understanding of the values underpinning your long and storied history.

    This might be a bit deep but herein is a view as to how the US was formed under God and why many Americans oppose national health care schemes.

    Is There a Right to Health Care?

    Miguel A. Faria, Jr., M.D.

    "When Thomas Jefferson wrote the Declaration of Independence, he followed a path blazed by John Locke (1632-1704) which extended as far back as Medieval philosopher and scholar St. Thomas Aquinas (1225-1274) and even the Roman statesman Cicero (108-43 BC) to the philosophical tenets of the natural rights of citizens, the basic rights to life, liberty and property.(5) St. Thomas Aquinas recognized the fact that if human law "deflects from the law of nature, it is unjust and is no longer a law but a perversion of law." And Cicero, who did not believe in a Judeo-Christian God, but recognized natural law, predicated that the power of the state be limited."

    And some more:

    " "Traditional legal rights," according to Professor Iredell Jenkins of the University of Alabama Law School, "are primarily protective: they guarantee citizens certain basic freedoms and immunities, and protect them against intrusion or arbitrary action by the state. These rights do not bestow any positive benefits upon the people...these traditional rights are not conferred on citizens by the state; rather, the people hold these rights prior to and independently of the state, which is merely enjoined to respect them and assure their free exercise.""

    And some more:

    "Health care is not a right, just as there are no rights to shelter (housing), clothing, food, or a paid vacation to Acapulco or Miami Beach. In essence, no individual is entitled to the services or the fruits of another's labor without just compensation. Physicians should be free to offer their services free of government coercion and, at least in theory, on whatever terms he or she chooses. As Objectivist philosopher, David Kelley, points out:

    A right is a principle that specifies something which an individual should be free to have or do. A right is an entitlement, something one possesses free and clear, something one can exercise without asking anyone else's permission. Since it is not a privilege or favor, we do not owe anyone else any gratitude for their recognition of our rights. But there is no such right [to medical care]. There cannot be --- not in a free society which recognizes the genuine rights of individuals to their own autonomy.(10)"

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    I heard that China was a great country which was only the third country to send someone into space. Whoops apparently they didnt do it on their own, the same technology which helped the Chinese send Sinonauts into space was the same technology they stole to make their ICBM's reliable. They also stole the technology for the suit and helmet.

    Seriously what innovations has the great middle kingdom come up with on their own with the exception of fake goods, swill oil scooped from the gutter, tainted and poisoned milk powder, and fake lamb (Duck meat soaked in sheep urine) and massive corruption?

    China hasnt created or invented anything for a few hundred years. Besides a singing general in the people's army whose son beat up a bunch of people.

    Famous Singer Li Shuangjiang’s Son Involved in Road Rage Assault – chinaSMACK

    My parents are retired, their medical costs are $40 each person through medicare. No idea where you are getting this misinformation. You need to get your head out of the sand.


    Quote Originally Posted by YCC
    My mom's friends who live in America tell her that they need to pay something like 400 american dollars each one of them every month for medical coverage. I think that's a lot......

    This couple is at retirement age.
    Last edited by HongKongFoot; 14-09-2011 at 04:42 PM.
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